Class- What happens to society when no one but the government remembers the truth anymore?/
Class-So far in this book, we see Mildred as this faint little flower type of character. How do you think this is different compared to Lady Macbeth and her role with her husband?
Class- For how long do you think Guy has been collecting those books? Why has he been doing that? Does the old man who planted the seed of doubt in him connect?
~Rebekah~Society becomes a puppet. No one in the society know what to think. The only knowledge they have is what the government wants them to know.
Bekah - I would say almost nothing, because if the people don't know that there is that information, then they can't suspect the government of having it. Will the government always know?
Rebekah- I think that the society becomes completely controlled and the society can no longer lead itself. After all, knowledge is power.
Class- Why do you think Bradbury chose the name the section The Hearth and the Salamander? What does this stand for?
Macy - I think that Lady Macbeth is only weak in front of other people besides Macbeth. Mildred is weak even if she is just with Montag.
Emma-could you elaborate on the government always knowing?
~Ruth~ I think Montag has been collecting books in the last couple years or so. I think it all starts when he meets Faber in the park (the old man).
Rebekah- It becomes a very messy and confusing place. Not a wise thing to do obviously! :)People are unaware and therefore unable to change the situation they are in. Very similar to the point I made in my essay about literature being a motivator for social change. People need knowledge about a situation in order to change it!
Macy- I think it is different in the beginning of Macbeth because Lady Macbeth wanted to take charge and told everybody what to do. Unlike Mildred, who went with what was going on and did not talk much.
Bekah- If the government is the only one that knows the truth, they can control everything. Once they control everything they are in complete power. This can completely corrupt society.
Class- Montag has many books, around 20, hidden in the vent. Does this mean he's been collecting them for an extended period of time? Does that in turn mean that Clarisse wasn't the one to plant the idea in his head?
shannon- I think we will find out why this section is named this way further down the road, so far i have no connection to it but i assume it will show in the next pages
Shannon - Awesome question! I don't have an exact answer, but remember ho Montag has that salamander symbol on him?
Macy- Lady Macbeth started Macbeth's journey for power. Mildred is almost holding Guy back. He is afraid to rebel because what he does impacts their life together as they know it. However, by the end of Macbeth, Lady Macbeth had wilted. I think that as 451 continues, Mildred will gear up and confront the challenge along with Guy.
~Shannon~ The hearth is like a fireplace and a salamander is a lizard-like creature that lives in fire. I think this symbolizes Montag because so far he is engulfed in fire, like a salamander.
Rebecah- when no one remembers the truth, then what everyone believes will be the new truth. For example: in the book people used to think books were a good thing. But now that no one believes that, books being bad has become the new norm. Thus the people that believe the old truth are now outcasts and are shunned, and re arrested if found in the possession of books.
Class- Do you think Clarisse is really gone? If she is, why did Brandburg chose to make her death so vague and insignificant?
Class- Do you think it is possible for Guy to change Mildred? If so how?
Class-What on earth is the deal with Mildred's and Montag's relationship?
Class- Beatty was clearly able to see what was transpiring between Mildred and Montag when Mildred finds the book in his pillow, how come Beatty doesn't ask what is going on or become suspicious?
Shannon- I think that Montag has been collecting books for a while, but Clarisse has just forced Montag to recognize this aspect of himself. She has put a voice to his inner thought.
Class- Why didn't Beatty listen to Mildred?
~Class~ Does Mildred have more respect for Beatty than Montag? On page 53 it says that when Beatty told her to turn down the parlor walls but when Montag asked her, she didn't do anything.
Shannon- I don't think Clarisse is gone, I believe the government relocated her and her family and her death is just a cover up.
Alex-I definitely think that Guy can change Mildred, just look in the book to see when he convinced her to not turn him in and instead try reading.
Shannon - I think that Bradbury uses the title the Hearth and the Salamander because they both relate to fire. The hearth is used to protect the house from a fire, that is controlled and used for warmth rather than destruction. Salamanders are also thought to be able to live through the fire, representing Montag's resistance to the fire.
Class- Beatty's monologue went on for quite a while and it was very vague. What is he actually saying?
Grant- I think that their relationship is more of an awkward friendship. They bicker and have minimal small talk here and there and they do not listen to each other.
Alex- I think that Guy is already changing Mildred. Just by asking, "how did we meet?", he has caused her to recognize what their life has become. By showing her the books, he is causing her to re-evaluate their life in that society.
Class- How is Mildred's liking to run over dogs while speeding down the road in "The Beetle" similar to the boys' obsession with slaughtering pigs in LOF?
Shannon - I think that Clarisse was kind of like a Duncan because she was such a small part, but they both were kind of the base for the rest of the story. She planted an idea in Montag's mind...her job is now over.
Amber- I think she respects Beatty more because he isn't related to her. Kinda like how we kids often listen and obey our teachers more than we do our parents.
I think that Mildred will become the reason that Montag rebels. he sees how she is living and pities her. He wants to change the way live so that people are not just wasting their life in front of their television.
Ruth- Mildred is an empty shell. She purely depends on TV, and isn't even intelligent enough to keep up with the simple plots. Beatty knows this and thinks he is above wasting his time listening to what she has to say.
Ruth-I think that Beatty didn't listen to Mildred because he knew what was happening (she discovered the book) but didn't want to let Guy on. You can tell that Beatty knows by his statement about firemen having an itch to read a book and 24 hours to burn it.
Shannon- Taking some of the inferences and discussions from our last fishbowl, I would have to assume that Clarisse was not the one who planted the seed in his head, but the Uncle that is often talked about with Clarisse but never seen. I think he was the man in the park who Montag ran into that one day.
Shannon - I do think Clarisse is really gone. I think Bradbury made her disappearance vague because he wants the reader to think for himself about what happened to Clarisse, whether it was malicious or innocent is up to the reader.
Sophia- I think that they like to do that stuff because they feel that they have power and that they are superior to everyone who does not do that.
~Ruth~ I feel like Beatty has a disrespectful behavior towards Mildred. I think he just sees her as another house wife that just wants parlor walls. Also, I think he know how important this conversation is to Montag and Mildred is interrupting.
Shannon - He was trying to explain the history of their jobs, but maybe he was hinting that he had books too. Or maybe he knew that Montag had books.
Amber- I think that Mildred sees Beatty as a representative of the law, and that's why she respects him more than Montag. Class- Does this mean that Mildred would betray Guy if she thought that what he was doing was against the law?
Does Captain Beatty actually know about the books or does he just recognize Montag acting suspiciously? If he does know about the books than why does he not report Montag?
All who answered- Thanks! that makes more sense now!
~Class~ Does anyone else see irony with the firemen? They call themselves the "Happiness Boy" but are they really spreading happiness?
Shannon - I think that Beatty's monologue was basically his attempt to take away Montag's curiosity. I think that Beatty suspects Montag because of the way he fears the mechanical hound and his recent behavior at the latest fire.Beatty also knows that Montag has the ability to cause real damage to his job, along with all the other firemen.
Rebekah- I don't believe Clarisse will turn in Guy. She will only turn in Guy if she finds him continuing to read books. Right now she is just giving him and the books a chance.
I find it interesting that firemen consider themselves the reason for all happiness in society, but really they are spreading hate and destruction.
Sophia- I think that hard circumstances have caused the boys in LOF and Mildred to turn more savage. They don't know better- killing the pigs and the dogs are just seen as a pleasurable activity.
Could all of Fahrenheit be considered social commentary? If so, then what is Ray Bradbury saying?
Rebekah- I think that she wouldn't because she doesn't care that much, but I also think that if she decided that the books started to change Montag in a way she does not like, she would turn him in.
Class: Why did Beatty lecture to Montag?
James- like Beatty said, the firemen are lenient and give the person 24 hours to burn it, otherwise the firemen come and burn it for them.
Alison-I think that Beatty lectures to Montag because he knows/suspects about the books.
Bekah-I agree Alex. I think that Mildred will only turn him in when she feels like these books aren't doing her any good, and in fact they are making her life worse. Until she reaches that point, she won't turn in Montag.
Shannon- I agree with you, but if most of the people do not know about the books, how can they be upset about it?
Class - Would the suggestion of burning books be a reason to ban/challenge 451? Do people today think that people who read this book might get some of the same ideas? Right now we all disagree with the burning of books, but could our perspective change?
class- will the fact that Montag make Beatty see things from Montags point of view? Will Beatty also rebel?
Amber- Yes it is very ironic. They are defiantly not happy whether or not they realize it. They get tired of their life doing the same things all the time. Guy would have been the same had Clarisse not asked him if he was happy.
James- I think that Bradbury is saying that society depends on people voicing their opinions because without books voicing opinions, society has become ignorant and easy to control. Also, society has become lazy, and more technologically dependent.
Alison - I think Beatty lectured Montag because Bradbury was trying to use Beatty to cause a conflict within Montag.
Rebekah & Alex - I agree with Alex because Mildred really does love Montag so she will tolerate his reading binge. However, if he continues to read she will turn him in because he is challenging the society that she has lived in for so long.
Allison- I think that Beatty lectured Montag because he knows that Montag is not sure what to think of his job because he started questioning Beatty in the truck on the way back from the old lady's house
Emma- i think that our perspective could most definitely change. When the would leaders get tired of warring, they will look for different solutions of stopping war. Burning books might be one of these solutions.
Class - Does anyone get the idea that maybe showing affection for you husband/wife be shunned? Ex: they don't sleep in the same bed.
Sean- While I do agree with your assumption about him wanting to rebel against society just by watching Mildred, I also feel like there are many more thoughts behind it. I think Montag has been acting like he just woke up through the whole story, at first his sight and perspective on things are very limited and minute and the biggest things go unnoticed, but as you continue to blink after waking up, things start to clear up. I think Montag is suddenly taking all of this in, and his gaze is widening to the point where he see's how all the people in his life play huge parts of who he is. Mildred was the only thing he knew, life with Mildred and their TV walls and his job that he used to have a burning desire for. Ever since Clarisse came along, he's been expanding. He didn't look up at the moon, he never compared leaves to cinnamon, he never asked himself if he was truly happy. He always had the chance to, he was always capable of discovering his own journey, but Clarisse was the one who splashed water on his face and made him open his eyes a lot faster.
Class-What do you think about Mildred? She takes sleeping pills but doesn't remember, she listens to Guy and doesn't turn him in, she doesn't care about Clarisse's death.
Alison-I think that Beatty lectured Montag because he could tell that Montag was having a mental breakdown and was starting to question his life and what the fireman do. Beatty thought that if he didn't talk to Montag, then he would revolt against the government/society/fireman, so he needed to calm him down. This clearly didn't work, as Montag now is reading books and wants to stop the burning.
Sean- I think that Beatty has already rebelled. For example, he seems to know Montag's guilty conscience even though Montag didn't recognize it. Also, Beatty could finish the old lady's quote. He had knowledge of what was in the books.
Class - Out of all the books why did Montag take the one that he did? I think it's because the excerpt that he read out of the book reminded him of Clarisse when they were talking about grass and flowers.
Class- Beatty gives the history of fireman and it shows that fireman are there to make society happy, can the government really please everyone and eliminate competition?
Sean- I don't think that Beatty would rebel because he has already read books and he does not think that they are useful, so why should he challenge it.
Class - Is the society in the book unstable or too stable?
Class - The inner circle is discussing the inability of the society to deal with its emotions, using today as a contrast. However, is this present in society today?
Emma-I think that they are just uncomfortable with each other. Like some said before, they have an awkward relationship and don't really know how to act around each other anymore. I think that it could be just them and how they act around each other.
Emma- I think that people in society just don't have true feelings anymore. For example, Clarisse asked Montag if he was happy, and then said he wasn't in love. Husbands and wives just can't feel those strong emotions anymore.
Alex- I don't think that they can because not everyone has the same opinion so there will always be someone who is unhappy with society
Emma- I think so, I think that Guy is in denial about being in love with Mildred anymore. I think that they just use each other, just to have a husband/wife, to meet the cultural norms.
James-I think that it is exactly the same. I think that today people have a hard time getting across their emotions and they don't really know how to express how they are feeling. I think that today it is just as hard as it is in the book.
Bekah - why? why did that change?
Sophia-I believe that this society is so stable, it's ready to collapse with a revolutionary. Does that make sense?
Emma- i think that Montag doesn't sleep in the same bed as his wife because he is beginning to rebel. Mildred is one of the reasons that he is rebelling. But she is the norm of society and he is not. They dont agree, and he doesnt seem to have much affection for his wife.
James- Today people are more comfortable expressing their feelings over text or email. It is harder for us to handle face to face confrontations because we are so used to technology.
Alex- The thought or attempt of trying to make everyone happy is a hopeless one. It is the basis of a Utopian society.The idea of Communism. IT is human nature to be different, to argue. Although I wish we could all be happy and peaceful, it is not like humans to hold hands and dance around in a circle if you get my meaning. Sorry to be so bitter! :)
Bekah and James-I agree with you Bekah. I think it is much harder to have a face to face conversation or relationship today, while it is much easier to do it over/using technology.
Emma- I think that technology provided false high's, and now people in society can't recognize true joys like nature or family. They live on false happiness, like Mildred with her TV.
Alex - I do not think they can supplement the holes left by books. As shown by Mildred's desire for a 4th wall screen, the holes left without knowledge cannot be filled, no matter how much entertainment is provided. People like Mildred will always want more.
Emma- I definitely think that affection and love for one another does not play a big part in this story because you really don't hear a lot about it. The author does not push to make it apparent that they love each other. I also think that by sleeping in different beds, it has symbolism involving the whole idea of society and how everyone has been separated and isolated even among their own houses. Mildred sits in her house all day watching her tv, and even in the firehouse, Montag and his coworkers are usually silent and solitary.
Class - Right now we are pretty dependent on technology, in the future will be totally controlled by it? Technology will be our life?
Emma- I think Guy doesn't sleep with his wife because he doesn't love her and she doesn't love him. They are companions to one another so they don't have to be alone. They don't even remember how they met.
Class- I think that Liz made a good point, "Maybe it is not right to not ready." I think that he is waiting for the right time to bring them out. Why do you think he was waiting?
Emma-based on our current progress, I unfortunately believe that we will be controlled to much by technology. On that note, Class-how much is too much technology?
Emma - I think that the real reason this book was banned/challenged is because it is so controversial. It reveals a scary futuristic world and also talks about individuals having no say and being dominated by their own government.
Emma- I think that technology has positives and negatives. Technology increases communication, like skype, but it also decreases face to face conversations. I think that technology will be a huge part of our life, but won't completely control it.
Grant- I think technology would become too much when we won't have to think for ourselves because there will be something that can control that.
Emma- i think that as technology advances, that we will also advance. Because we advance with technology, I don't think that we will ever be totally controlled by it like in the would of Fahrenheit 451. It may become a very large part of our lives, but I don't think that it will ever be able to control us.
Emma- Yes we as a people are very dependent on technology which is actually scary to me. Just think about how much in the last 10 years we have advanced and become more dependent on technology. What will it be like in 10 more years. What will be the age you get a cell phone? I have already seen kinder-gardeners with cell phone when they clearly don't need them. Also, we can't even read a book naturally anymore! We need it to be on a screen! My main fear is what will we do when technology fails us! Our society will fall apart!
Grant- Technology is too much when society starts do depend on it and build their life around it.
Grant - Technology is too much when people are unable to accomplish a task without technology. When people are unable to read and write due to their dependence on technology, then technology has gone too far.Class - Can technology itself be a handicap, like in Harrison Bergeron?
Class-Anabelle has a good point about technology. Does anybody else have other ideas?
Grant - I think that the "proper" amount of technology would depend on your perspective. Some people, like many of our grandparents are blown away by things like cell phones and computers and think that there is more than enough technology. But just think about our grandchildren, they will be surrounded by all these technological wonders and will still be wanting more, just like we all want the latest greatest iPone.
Grant and Annabelle-I agree Annabelle. I think that too much technology is when we can't make our own decisions. Something/someone else makes them for us.
~Class~ What do you think about the Mechanical Hound? Does it symbolize anything? Is it set to get Montag?
Sofia- The similarities between the society in the books and our society today make the book even more frightening. Everyone is dependent on technology and TV. Most kids hate reading and if given the choice, won't.
Amber- I think that the Hound can sense Montag's guilt. I wonder if Beatty knows this, because he seems to taunt Montag about the Hound's attraction to Montag.
Class: Is Clarisse dead? Could Mildred have made that up to dilute Montag from an increasingly rebellious character?
James-I think technology can be a handicap, because it limits our own capabilities to think and act for ourselves. When we can't be left to our own creativeness and resourcefulness, technology impairs us.
Class- Does the quote from the book that Montag read aloud to Mildred have significance?
Amber- I think that it has been introduced to us now because later it is going to have a big part with Montag and as he starts to open more and more books, the more danger he will be lead into.
Class- do you think that if Montag having a book gets out to the surrounding community that it will inspire social change in others in his community? Will they think "If a fireman has a book, then they can't be that bad"?
Amber- The Mechanical Hound defiantly symbolizes something but I'm not quite certain what. I think it is programed to know when the firemen are hiding books.
Alison- I don't think Mildred is maniacal or even intelligent enough to think of doing something like that. I think that if Clarisse isn't dead, the government made up that she was, not Mildred.
Class - Alex D compared the old woman to a martyr. Martyrdom has traditionally been used with people dying for their religion, have books become like a forbidden 'religion' in this society, used to fill a space in people's hearts?
Shannon: That's a good comment, i agree with you.
class- all the books that Montag has read so far have pointless facts, is he going to loose his curiosity for books and loose his "itch" as Beatty said he would
Alison- I think that Clarisse is either dead, or recruited to join the government. It is strange to me that Bradbury has taken her out of the story, because she was such a big part of Montag's new awareness of society.Class- Why did Bradbury choose to remove Clarisse just when she was beginning to impact Montag?
Sean- Yes, if the firemen start revolting against the gov't them the people will start to become curious and many will follow. That is exactly what their gov't is afraid of and will most likely try to kill or imprison him over. They won't risk losing their control over the people.
Rebekah- it's possible that it has significance. It could mean that people would rather die in this society than reach out to change their world.
~James~ YES! I think that books have become a forbidden belief. The belief of book is banned because it can plant ideas in the minds of society and the government would have power.
Sean-I think so. I think that once people hear that Montag has books, then they should have them too. Fireman are like leaders in the community, so if they have books, what does that mean for everyone else? I think that others will see that as okay and then they will come out and Montag will create social change in his society.
Class- Do you think Mildred may be more intelligent than she's letting on? She appears to be unable to even follow the plots of simple television programs or remember how many pills she's taken. Is that partially an act? Will another side of her come out?
Alex- I think that the pointless facts will just make Montag more curious. I think that Montag will start searching for more significance, and want more knowledge.
Amber- The mechanical hound represents the ideal citizen in the eyes of the government. It has no individual thought, but is simply programmed to do specific tasks that are necessary to accomplish a job.
James- It would make sense. I think that the books are used to fill space because the people don't really have family, like Mrs. Smith said, "Mildred's family is the t.v." They don't really know how to love and how to feel special because there is no one there to make them feel that way. I think that Montag wants to read so badly because he needs that space to be filled.
Bekah- How would Clarisse be recruited to join the government when she is so opposed to it?
I think that Clarisse was removed because she was no longer needed. She exploited that seed of doubt in Montag, which made him rebel.
Class - Beatty says "...because they had mass, they became simpler," is this true today? Has mass media made us less intellectually curious?
Alex- I think we can use context clues to assume that her won't lose his 'itch' cause otherwise there would be no storyline and I don't think that people would still be reading it today if you see my brain wave.
Class - This may seem like a simple question but if all books are gone, are writers arrested as well?
Class- The inner circle mentioned Montag's loyalty to his job. Is Montag betraying this loyalty when he reads the books, even though what his job does is wrong?
~Rebekah~ Bradbury did remove Clarisse suddenly without warning. I think Bradbury wants you to see where a person can go and what they can think was a little spark of rebellion is set. Clarisse gave Montag a little 'push' because he seemed stuck. She reminds him that what he is doing (collecting books) is good.
Class- In history we talked about yellow-journalism. Is this type of writing a good thing or a bad thing?
James- Yes, people are not so suspicious to think that the gov't was lying to them through the news. And if everyone is being feed false information them we will assume its the truth. People won't dig any further.
~Rebekah~ Yes and no, I think he is technically betraying his loyalty but in his own mind, he is doing the right thing through what he believes.
Class- In 451, Montag says that too many people creates too many opinions. This is like what the inner circle is saying with rebellions. Are rebellions and multiple opinions a good thing in society?
Rebekah - I think that Montag is both betraying and not betraying his job at the same time. Every fireman has a curiosity towards books but he is reading books against the wish of the government that he works for.